theres a difference between supporting abortion and being prochoice like
i dont think its the right thing to do but if its the only solution or if you were raped etc

also america is a cup thats just being overflowed ok theres too much poverty and bringing up more children will cause another depression i think ok thanks bye

^ I agree about there being a difference. I don't support "abortion"; I support the freedom of choice.

Women should have the right to make choices concerning their own bodies. The government should not be able to forbid women from making these choices. Religion needs to stay the hell out of lawmaking.

Well, i suppose you are right on the first part, but I have to disagree with 'if it is the only solution'. There is ALWAYS the option of adoption.
According to some research I did, there are about 163,000 children eligible for adoption, while there are 600,000 people out there waiting to adopt.

In your argument to overpopulation, there is more than enough space for everyone. In fact, 'every person in the world could live comfortably within the landmass of the state of Texas'.

For more info, visit this website, link

In relation to La Dispute, I guess I agree too to the difference, but I hope you can see the point I'm making.

When you say 'women should choose what to do with there bodies', I did some research, and I found that women don't 'choose' to have an abortion. They have abortions because they are pressured into it by their boyfriends.

And with us pro-lifers, we are not trying to force religion on you. In fact, you don't have to have religion to understand that abortion is wrong.

Thank you for your comment

^ Yeah, admittedly the religion thing was a dumb jab on my part and I don't want to get into the relation between it and abortion so I'm going to ignore it, if you don't mind.

But my problem is with: "They have abortions because they are pressured into it."

Okay, wow. Yes, I am sure there are some women who are pressured into abortion, but not all women; I would even say not most. Mostly abortion is used as the choice when someone accidentally gets pregnant (and doesn't want a child or is unable to care for them) or is raped. Plus, 35 states require pre-abortion counseling, remember, so in at least those states it is less likely that a women would be getting an abortion if she was just pressured.

I'm not even sure your point is relevant though, because even if some women are pressured, freedom of choice is a must.

My main point is just that a person's body is their own and if they want an abortion it should not be illegal for them to make that decision. (Note that I don't care what people personally believe; I really only care about the government here.) People who oppose abortion don't have get one, but they should not be making laws that limit people who are pro-life. The government should not decide morals like that. Let everyone believe what they want.

Yeah, I'm not saying that ALL women are pressured into it, I'm saying many women are.

And I agree with you on freedom of choice as a must, but what about the baby's choice? They don't choose to abort themselves.

I respect and understand your point, but just try to see from my point of view for a sec.

Women do have the right to choose to have an abortion, but unborn children don't have the right to see light of day. Now my point is: How is that fair?

I'm not gonna force you to change, but I would like you think about it.

Thanks

^ Sure, many, but still, most aren't.

And I was hoping we wouldn't get to the discussion of "it's baby killing" but okay.

During the time period that abortion is allowed, a baby is not conscious and does have the capacity to choose, let alone think. (Your argument is like asking whether an ant has the right to vote. An ant has no more ability to choose than a fetus.) Fetus' brains are inactive, their nervous systems not developed. They are just fetuses, not even able to exist away from the mother and thus more like parasites. If you cut something off before it begins, it's not an ending.

Edit: What it may come down to though is whether you believe in souls. If so, I hope it doesn't bother you if I cut our discussion because spirituality is another topic entirely. I'm just arguing about legality. ^_^"

I was hoping we wouldn't have to come here, but since you have...

I'm gonna break it to you straight. Abortion is cold blooded murder. I'll try not to get too spiritual, but we are all made unique and wonderfully.

And in relation to 'a baby is not conscious...' I disagree. I would say a baby is very much conscious and alive in the womb.

I'll leave you with this very true statement: Abortion stops one heart and breaks another.

^ Hey, to play the blame game you did with discussions about whether or not a fetus has a choice! xD

Abortion is not murder because a baby is not conscious. There's kind of a lot of evidence. For example:

"Several factors explain this lack of wakefulness, including the environment of the womb, which is warm, buoyant and cushioned, and the presence of a chemical environment (most notably adenosine) that preserves a continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation and suppresses higher cortical
activation in the presence of intrusive external stimulation" (link).

The brain is minimally active in the fetus. The fetus is not conscious. It is living but only in the parasitic way that I mentioned earlier. I also want to note that a fetus is literally as alive as a virus - unable to survive without a host and incapable of metabolism on its own, despite the fact that it does have genome. Viruses are generally not considered living, thus a fetus should not be considered living.

Abortion is not murder, so women should be allowed to choose it~

In ' Horton hears a Who', Horton says a classic line that has become very popular. That is ' A person is a person, no matter how small.' I fully agree with that.

What I am saying is, that from the moment a child is conceived, he/she is alive. When a woman chooses to have an abortion, the child is taken from it's only means of life and left for dead. If that isn't murder, nothing is.

Not only is abortion murder, it is the ultimate form of child abuse.

But Horton is talking about people who are conscious, whose neurons have made their connections, who have metabolisms, who can think. Fetuses are not conscious, are barely developed, must rely on their mothers for metabolism, and can not think. Horton's little people might, but fetuses do not meet the scientific definition of life. That is not personal conviction but fact and biology.

I'm between, and I believe that if you do decide to kill your own child before birth, at least pray for him/her to have a better life beyond (if there is a beyond) or wish for him/her to rest in peace. If you think unborn children are just another disposable item instead of a could-have-been-living being without feeling sorry for that particular being, you don't have as much respect for the dead as you thought you did.

La Dispute, that's not the point I'm trying to make! I'm saying that from the moment a child is conceived to the day they die, they are alive.

In other words, just because the child is still in the womb, it does not mean he/she does not exist.

Let's look at it this way. If an unborn child is not a human, what is it?

And besides, you need your brain the move your hands and legs, right. Even if you are not conscious of it, you are thinking when you move. You are saying that unborn children cannot think. If that is the case, then how do they kick and move inside the womb?

And when you say Horton was talking about conscious people only, I disagree. He was talking about anyone, from the Whos to unborn children to someone sitting at their computer.

What I am saying is that he was referring to EVERYONE, and includes unborn babies.

NOOOOOO

@MineTurtle: Yes, a fetus in the womb does exist, but it is a fetus. There's a reason the word exists - it's different from a child or a baby or an infant. A fetus is a fetus, not conscious, not fully alive. I don't want to get into the semantics of fetus vs. human vs. child vs. baby vs. whatever whatever though; can we focus on the life thing?

So - no, you do not have to consciously think to move. A fetus in the womb reacts to external stimuli, primarily pain and nutrients (I think), and yes the nervous system is necessary for that, but consciousness is not. Bacteria respond to external stimuli, right? Don't viruses, too? They aren't conscious, neither is a fetus.

And with your scientific comment, are you saying that and unborn child does not exist?

I ask again: If and unborn child is not human, what is it?

Yes they exist, and yes they are human, but they are fetuses and not conscious.

The dead are human too, ya know~

Well, I wanna ask you something:
When does life begin?

So I go back to my subject of murder. Murder is where you kill a person right?

Well, you admit that an unborn baby is a human. Abortion is taking life from him/her. Therefore, abortion is murder.

And viktoriya773, I am so glad that you are against abortion! It feels great to know that I am not standing alone!

I think life begins at birth, because that's when the child is separated from the mother and able to survive that way. It is also when, I believe, consciousness and awareness begin.

And it's human but not alive. If you slit the throat of a corpse that's not murder either.

And whirlwind, you're not doing anyone a favor by sitting on the fence. Decide which side you wanna be on and stay on it.

Sorry if that sounded a bit harsh, but I'm a firm believer in telling the truth, and telling it straight, even if it hurts.

Science proves that human life begins as conception. There is no way around this fact.

If you still believe abortion is okay, answer me two questions?

First, how many lives are lost if a pregnant woman is shot in the tummy (Where the baby is), and then in the heart?

^ Would you mind backing up those "facts" with evidence? I really don't mean to go ad hominem but you can't just make a statement, say it's fact, and not back it up with any evidence. :S

And I'm pretty sure you know what my answer is: one.

It's Ok. I'll find some evidence.

And second question: A woman has an abortion and comes out alive. How many lives are lost?

None. The fetus is but a potential life.

This has gone on for quite a long while so I will leave you with these points to think about:
-Abortion is a decision that cannot be taken back and post-abortive women regret the decision every day
-A person is a person, no matter how small
-Human life begins at conception
-Abortion is the ultimate child abuse
-Abortion is murder
-The number of deaths that took place on 9/11 is roughly the same amount of babies aborted each day.
-An unborn child is a human, not a fetus
-Abortion stops one heart and breaks another
-There is no such thing as an unwanted child
I could go on, but I'm just going to leave you with that.

You're doing that thing again where you just make statements and most aren't backed by anything. I'd really like some basis for "human life begins at conception" which ties into your whole thing on murder and child abuse.

Here's my argument in a nutshell, if we're going that way:

1. Freedom of choice is a human right. Every women should have the right to choose what to do with her own body and the government should not have the right to say otherwise. It's like making tattoos illegal. Some people may disapprove but that does not mean others should not be allowed to practice their own beliefs.

2. Abortion is not murder. The neurons and chemicals of fetus's brain are not developed and the brain does not have the capacity for thought or consciousness. Reflexes do not even begin to develop until the second trimester (14-27 weeks) so a fetus aborted before 24 weeks (typical cutoff) does not even have all normal reflexes. Therefore, a fetus is not conscious and not alive.

I've done research. I can tell you're getting a bit frustrated.

If you want information and facts, please visit this website:

www.whyprolife.com

I'm wrapping up this conversation, and you can do the research yourself!

Yes, because you fail to back up any of your statements. It's beginning to seem to me that you can't. And since you can't I might look into it myself but not a propaganda website; I prefer to use scholarly articles and scientific experiments as my research, but thanks.

I have many mixed feelings about abortion. I have no idea what I am...

The truth is i can back it up, I've just chosen not to.

I'll start with 'there is no such thing as an unwanted child.'
Each year, 40,000 children are placed up for adoption and 129,000 children in foster care are eligible for adoption. This brings us up to 33,000. Meanwhile, there are 600,000 people out there waiting to adopt. So that's why there is no sch thing as an unwanted child.

OK, hetalianstella, tell me exactly how you feel about abortion

While I do feel life is precious and beautiful I also believe in the freedom of choice....but then again it depends. Here's my take on it. If a woman decides to not have safe sex and ends up pregnant than I believe she should take responsibility for her actions and birth the baby. But if it comes down to rape or incest than I believe that she should be allowed to get an abortion. And I do also kind of agree with @LaDispute because technically the fetus itself isn't alive yet~

And I do believe overpopulation is an issue as well. While it is true that the entire human population can squeeze together in an area in the size of LA, and if it is in the same density as New York City then all of us could live in an area the size of Texas. But see space isn't the main problem when it comes to overpopulation. It's more along the lines of the resources that may or may not be able to support all of us. We could easily run out of things like food. There are many people in the world starving already. And then there would be a drastic increase in environmental problems such as pollution and deforestation. Here's a fun fact~ Each of us will send 64 tons of waste to landfills over our lifetime. Too many people can seriously harm the Earth.

In relation to rape, about70% of women pregnant because of rape still chose to give birth. And I would prefer if you stopped calling an unborn human a 'fetus'.

'we could run out of food' is true, IF we continued our current habits. If we were to learn how to rationalize the amount we eat, there would be enough for all of us and more. The truth is, there is enough food for every single person on the planet. We just haven;t learned how to rationalize how much we eat.

Yes but if a woman is impregnated against her will I think she should have that choice. Why does the word "fetus" bother you? That is the technical term for an unborn baby.

Even if we do have enough food for everyone there still is the environmental problems that could come from overpopulation~

Yes, I do believe in free will. But let's focus on a fact for a sec. Many people believe that abortion is the 'easy way out', and that it doesn't affect women. But the truth is that women who have abortions regret the decision every day for the rest of their life.

And the term 'fetus' bothers me, because scientific evidence proves that human life begins at conception. The reason it bugs me is because it feels like you are saying that unborn children are not human, when they very much are. You are treating babies as if they are things, not humans.

A woman should have every right to do what she wants to do.

I believe that, but what about the baby?

Girls DO have a choice about what to do with their bodies, but then again, that's sugarcoating the reality of abortion.

^Why did you make this poll if you were going to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with you?

I was just seeing who was for or against abortion

But, you do realize that abortion is accepted at times in the bible right?

Where?

^ Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life. (According to the bible)

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.

The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

Also I feel the need to clarify.
Pro-Choice people do not necessarily 'support' abortion. They support freedom of choice.

I both value life, but I also value free will. So I'm not quite sure.

If you look at it in the NIV it says this:
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life..."
So, what it's saying is, that if there is harm against the CHILD, his life should be taken, not the baby's.

And with the 'fetus'...that word is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible.

Leviticus 27:6- That is because, if you read a few verses before, it is talking about dedicating a child to the Lord. And you dedicate the child after he/she is born, so... I hope you see the point I'm making.

Numbers 3:15-16. The Lord was telling Moses to count the number of Levites. He did not say anything about unborn children being non-human.

Numbers 31. I might point out that he said '...kill all the boys...every woman who has slept wiht a man...' There was no evidence that the women were pregnant. I am also pretty sure that they would have spared those women until they gave birth to their child.

Hosea 9. It says 'I will slay their offspring...' Back then, I'm sure that they would have waited until AFTER birth. That is not abortion. Abortion is killing a child INSIDE the womb.

Hosea13. I am not God, so I cannot say why God said he would do that, but if you wanna know, you can ask him!

1 Samuel 12. I point out again. It is talking about AFTER the child is born.

Numbers 5. Abortions and miscarriages are different things. Abortion is taking the child from it's only means of life. Miscarriage is a child dying in the womb.

Genesis 38. if you read on, she gives birth to her sons.

And with your pro-choice statement, I do agree. God does desire to give us choice, but He desires for us to choose life.

And I see why you are a bit unsure. Here's a story:

Imagine that you have created your own world. Now, imagine that you created mini figures of all of your friends. Suddenly, your creation starts moving around! You start loving this, so you decide to make your favorite thing. You like making that thing so much, that you make more. Then your creation starts thinking 'Oh, this is just a big inconvenience. Let's get rid of it.'. And suddenly, they are getting rid of this thing whenever they choose to. As this goes on, some people realize who created them and who created your Favorited thing, and they speak up and say 'C'mon guys! This is just wrong! We need to stop!' But they are just ignored. Now, how do feel about the people who are choosing to destroy your favorite thing? How do you feel about the people who speak up and try to stop this destruction?

Think about it.

I don't agree with abortion at all but who am I to tell someone that they can't/shouldn't have one. I would never have one myself, or even consider it, but I'm not going to drag someone by the hair away from a clinic if they decide that they want one.

You should be able to make your own decisions without others butting in.

But what happens if the decision you are making is wrong? For example:
You decide 'I think I'll go around killing people I don't like. After all, I have the right to make my own decisions.' Don't you agree that someone should at least TRY to stop you if you are making the wrong decision?

^ "Wrong" is an awfully arbitrary term; it means something different to everyone different. Therefore, you can not try to prevent a "wrong decision" based on your own moral standards. What if someone told you it was wrong to go to church? They would believe their conviction that church is wrong, and you would believe your conviction that church is positive no matter what they said. Do you see what I mean? Morals vary person-to-person, and as long as someone is acting within the bounds of the law (not that this is the important difference between abortion and your killing spree example), another person has no right to try to stop their decisions.

The only thing I've got to say. Please check out the following link:
link
This is all I ask of you.

The first thing that struck me was the fact that she compared herself to Jesus and claimed to be above everyone else in God's eyes, wow. What an egocentric speaker.

So - are you coming back to your point about 'the fetus's right to live' with that clip? I'd like to know exactly what you were trying to say so I don't respond to an assumption~

Listen, I've argued long enough. It's not up to me to convince you to change your opinion. You've got to decide for yourself. But, I just want you put yourself in the place of Gianna. Would you ever be able to forgive your mother, if that were you? Would you be bitter? Would you view abortion differently? Think about it.

I think you should be able to under certain circumstances.

How about we all respect one another's opinions eh?