See its not so much that I don't like Brucas, it's that I don't like Brooke...and I find it hard to like the couple when I don't like both the characters...same reason i've never been a big fan of naley either.

hmmm, i don't think dawson and joey were meant to be together...who knows...been a long time since i watched dawsons creek lol

lol, its the opposite for me, i love peyton (most of the time, sure she pisses me off, all charcters do at some point) but can't stand leyton.

lol. did you watch dawson's creek at all!!!! DJ were the mulder and scully, the harm and mac, the piper and leo, the only difference is that ther didn't end up together, big difference but it goes to show that meant to be couples arn't always the endgame.

im glad haley wasnt on with lucas more lmaoo! she had enough screen time with natha! lmaoo i hate haley more thann anyone of the show! actually shes joint with lindsey! :@ i dont really like mouth either haha!

leyton tried so hard - how?
dont you mean brucas - brookes always been insecure about leyton whe brucas were together! she even give up in s4!

i agree with you broody4cheery!
i HATED SEASON 4..
by far the most boring and gross season yet!

thanx. i thought the season was broken and dull, i missed the interaction between the group, it was a deluded version of frienship, rachel and brooke spent the season together, naley aswell and then leyton, they could have mixed it up, i mean the group barely spoke for the season and then all got together at the end as if they were the best of friends. thankgod after the championship they sorta started hanging out more.

and laurra im sorry u couldnt understand what i was saying, and no i dont mean brucas i 100% mean leyton, brucas flowed, it was never a forced thing and yes brooke was somtimes insecure but what does that have to do with what i said, dont see the relevance. i was merely expressing my disgust at the way leyton was being forced, to the point the two characters pretty much cut contact with all other characters and they had to rewrite history (and repeatedly undermine previous relationships) for leytons sake. sorry i dont care mark, shove it down my throat as much as possible theres no way in hell im believing that leyton are some meant to be couple, they are an insult to true love.

i agree^^

me too!
exactly!

i think that after Brooke broke up with Lucas in season3 there wasn't any chance for them to be together again..they sort of "forced" Leyton because its really meant to be from season1.

What you're saying makes sense. ut if you think about it the interview with Mark Schwahn said that the ending has been determined since he wrote the pilot. And Brooke wasn't in the pilot. I like Brooke sometimes. But to be honest she stands for everything I hate. The 'bitchy Cheerleader' who starts off as a slut. Whether or not she kept to it. I have to say I do like her so far this season. But I think that's only because of ow pro Leyton she was. Nad as for Dawson's Creek. I'm not sure if Dawson and Joey were destined from the beginning. but if they were and like you said all the others are the same doesn't that make it even more of a clue that Leyton might? Because Mark sees all this and wants to make OTH different from the rest?

And how are Leyton an insult to true love? They may be fictional characters but if you think about it. Peyton gets shot .. Lucas saves her (while he is "inlove" with Brooke) Peyton gets attacked .. Lucas saves her ( even though he is supposedly still in love with Brooke) and when he had his accident. An accident that if anything should have cleared things up for him he came back because he couldnt die without telling Peyton he loves her. I think that's a pretty strong case of true love.

ive seen that interview with mark too, but he also said that the ending he's had from the beginning has changed a bit as well, he didn't confirm he was talking about relationships, he could have been talking about them as a whole, about Nathan and Lucas and their brotherhood after all that's what's the shows main thing is, its the story of two brothers. he has also stated in interviews that lucas' endgame couple is not definite yet.

using the fact lucas saves peyton as a case of them being true love is rediculous, it just means she has to be saved, somebody has to do it, if Haley or Brooke or anyone needed help Lucas would save them, and if you want to be all he saves peyton, yeah he physically saved her over and over again, but how could you not call what he did for Brooke saving her, he did for Brooke what Haley did for Nathan, he saved her from herself, from her life, from the person she thought she had to be, he puleld her out of darkness, that person you like this season exists only because of Lucas. now that is what i call saving a person.
And the accident, i may give you that one, it was very cute how he thought of Peyton but not strange considering at the time he was dating her, of course that's what he would be thinking, they couldn't have it be Brooke he'd just gotten with Peyton, he'd alreday told Brooke he loved her, he didn't need to come back for her, even Brooke told him to come back cause Peyton needed him,lol, maybe that was Brooke seeping into his subconcious.
i find their relationship insulting for many reasons, not just because i find it ungenuine, not just because i think they both love other people, not just because they lack chemistry. i won't list them all just a few reasons, i don't like the dishonesty, i dont' like the person leyton turns peyton into, it brings out the worst in her, makes her betray her friend, peyton is not a selfish person yet she seems to be unkindly selfish when it comes to lucas, their relationship in season 4 was built on a lie. And when they look deep into their hearts who did they come up with - not each other, but two other people, yes im referring to brooke and jake. leyton were pushed together, they didn't get back together until their true loves told them to, it killed me watching that, why did teh writers to that, instead of getting lucas and peyton together naturally they tortured us by having them be handed over by their others, as if not by their own choice but because others told them to be together, arghh.
leyton may have many physical saving moments, but brucas have moments too, ones i like to think of as true love, and they have fate on their side, hey the ball went in thats gotta mean something. i'm just going to wait patiently for lucas to wake up, stop dreaming and remember that he's the guy for Brooke.

Yes what you're saying about Lucas saving Brooke is true but Lucas saved Peyton like that too! he saved her form Nathan in season 1. He brought Jske back because he wanted to make her happy in season 2. ANd he took care of her all through out season 4 before and after psycho Derek! nad in season 3 when he was supposed to have just gotten everything he wanted by getting back with Brooke he still left TO GO WITH PEYTON! She needed him and he dropped everything to be with her!
As for the whole needed to be told thing well in the first season they both hurt each other real bad. So Ithink that they needed to be told because they were so afraid of getting hurt again. And that the people who supposedly their true loves told them they werent because they were each other's true love!

Broody4cheery, you've made a whole bunch of arguments, but you haven't backed ANY of them up, making your whole rant pretty unvalid.

"i don't like the dishonesty"
Yeah, they were dishonest to Brooke, but if you look at all the other fictional couples who've cheated, no one ever says that about them: Ross&Rachel, Noah&Allie, Jack&Rose! They are considered True Love, how are Leyton any different. It really bugs me when people say that they don't like how Leyton cheated, but they can look past all the others.

"i dont' like the person leyton turns peyton into, it brings out the worst in her, makes her betray her friend, peyton is not a selfish person yet she seems to be unkindly selfish when it comes to lucas"
Yeah, sure, she kissed her best friends boyfriend, but she wasn't selfish about it. She wasn't all "He's MINE!" Actually, In Season 1 Peyton wanted to stop but Lucas kept on persuing her. And in Season 4, she waited till things were way over with Brucas before making a move. And when they were together, how was she selfish?

"their relationship in season 4 was built on a lie."
...Yeah, you can think that...

"And when they look deep into their hearts who did they come up with - not each other, but two other people, yes im referring to brooke and jake."
Prove it? Doesn't the fact that he's written TWO books about her speak for itself? How about the fact that she can to Tree Hill to see him! She could have gone to Savannah to see Jake, but she didn't.

"leyton were pushed together"
Now that's a bunch of BS. In Season Three, when Jake told Peyton that she was in love with Lucas, she didn't suddenly go, "Oh yeah. You're right. See ya!" Yeah, Jake gave a puch in the right direction, which is why he totally rocks, but it was with those flashbacks that Peyton realise that Jake was right, and she loved Lucas. And how was HE forced to be with Peyton by Brooke! If you're talking about 409 when she said "Go," then you're kidding yourself. He would have gone anyway!

Now if anyone was forced, it'd definately be Jeyton. Season 2 was TOTALLY OOC for Peyton. But Lucas called Jake, forcing him to be there, and it seemed like they were together by default. I seriously think that if Lucas had called Peytons dad to cheer her up, then she would have been fine.

"hey the ball went in thats gotta mean something."
Yeah... that he's a good basketball player
duur

I agree with everything ppl said in defense of leyton. to be honest, i'm sick of debating with ppl who throw out arguments that they can't back them up. but here we go again, lol:

Dawson's Creek's Joey and Dawson were never written as a "meant to be" couple. They just never truly got over each other. and lets not forget, they were friends to begin with. No attraction, no vibe (unlike leyton where luke had feelings for peyton for a long time, and it didn't take long for peyton to fall for luke when he finally talked to her). it wasn't till Jawson hit puberty that things got complicated. So at least they were able to go back to being friends when they kept breaking up. also, Jawson never broke up because circumstances always tore them apart. There were times when one of them just didn't wanna be with the other (leyton never just fell out of love or fell for someone else while they were still together; their love went strong and it was always, ALWAYS circumstances that tore them apart; they never broke up cause they wanted to be with other ppl like jawson did). and in the end they were fine being friends.

with Lana and Clark, they were NEVER meant to be. I know alot of ppl liked them, but unlike leyton, clana constantly had issues throughout the seasons (clark keeping secrets from lana and vice versa hence the trust issues, insecurities and fear of opening up to one another; and I know peyton had her emotional issues for a while in s1, but it didn't take her long to open up to luke) and they just never worked. To be frank, I hated lana and clark. they were beyond boring and everyone knows Clark and Lois are destined for eachother and i'm looking forward to their union. Lois is so much more interesting than lana. If anything, ever since lois came to smallville, there have been foreshadowing hints of her & clark's destiny together (like it's been with leyton in s5). So it's similar to leyton in the sense that they may not be together now, but they are certainly meant to be and this season has had a LOT of foreshadowing hints to their eventual reunion (whether it's permanent or endgame I do not yet know).

about Mark schwahn, i'm not sure what interview you guys saw where he ever says that the ending is either changed or undecided. the one I saw had him say that the ending has not changed, but the road to the ending has been somewhat winding and a little different than from what he had originally planned (probably cause the longer OTH runs, the more storylines he has to establish to keep ppl on their toes till the end). He said the ending's been established since the pilot and that has not yet changed - and this interview was during s5 so i dunno if there's another recent one I haven't seen, but I don't know what some of you are talking about with Mark changing the ending. Just cause he said leyton aren't necessarily endgame, doesn't mean that they aren't. He just won't give away the ending - OBVIOUSLY. It doesn't mean that he does not yet know the ending.
link

The show hasn't forced Leyton together. like the other ppl said, if anything they always find their way back cause whoever they fall for, they'll always be the love of each other's lives. That's been hinted in all 5 seasons. Every person luke & peyton's been with (seriously), their partners have always had insecurities of leyton still having feelings for each other and leyton have had to constantly to put their partners' insecurities to rest. but like luke wrote in his book ("I realized we were always meant for eachother and every instinct to the contrary had been a denial of the following truth"), leyton knows deep down that they're meant to be, even though they're in denial half the time. S5 was mostly luke being in denial once again. but in the end, EVERYTIME (s1,s3,s4,s5) leyton always realize where their hearts lie - and with the way s5 was written, I believe they'll find their way back to one another in the end (unless s6 is scripted to change that tone - but right now all signs point to leyton).

I'm going to reply to Ritergrl cause you made the best rebuttal, thanx. im sorry i didn't back enough up i guess i was just assuming people would know what i was getting at seeing they've watched the show so why bother listing what people have seen, sorry, i will be more clear in the future to what i am referring to.

"i don't like the dishonesty"
Yeah, they were dishonest to Brooke, but if you look at all the other fictional couples who've cheated, no one ever says that about them: Ross&Rachel, Noah&Allie, Jack&Rose! They are considered True Love, how are Leyton any different. It really bugs me when people say that they don't like how Leyton cheated, but they can look past all the others.

I guess the problem i have with leyton cheating in season one was the fact it was her best friend but i don't really care about the cheating i dont hold it against either lucas or peyton or leyton. brooke forgave peyton so i think me as a viewer can as well.

"i dont' like the person leyton turns peyton into, it brings out the worst in her, makes her betray her friend, peyton is not a selfish person yet she seems to be unkindly selfish when it comes to lucas"
Yeah, sure, she kissed her best friends boyfriend, but she wasn't selfish about it. She wasn't all "He's MINE!" Actually, In Season 1 Peyton wanted to stop but Lucas kept on persuing her. And in Season 4, she waited till things were way over with Brucas before making a move. And when they were together, how was she selfish?
"their relationship in season 4 was built on a lie."
...Yeah, you can think that...

yeah i can, Peyton told Brooke her feelings about Lucas in season three because she wanted to be honest, then why did she never tell Lucas, that dishonesty, that lie, is what erks me most about Peyton and Leyton. There Lucas was not really understanding what went wrong with Brooke, still wanting to win her back and Peyton could have been honest could have maybe told Lucas that she'd told Brooke her feelings about him, but she never did, i don't think Lucas would have remained all buddy like with Peyton if she'd told HIM the truth.
I think that was a selfish act on her part, I think her getting with Lucas while he was dating Brooke was selfish and i know she ended things, but that was too late and it doesnt erase she was elfish earlier. and her behaviour in season 5 with lindsey, don't get me started with that. it seems to me that Peyton has a tendency to push Lucas away until he's with someone else.
these acts in my opinion are the worst that Peyton commits, other than how she goes about her relationship with lucas i can not think of one bad thing peyton's done (hmmm, drugs, but that was once and experimenting and she like didn't need to be told it was wrong, she never did it again, so i guess theres drugs but i don't know about that one)she's a great person, and i personally think that the worst things she's ever done has been to get Lucas.

"And when they look deep into their hearts who did they come up with - not each other, but two other people, yes im referring to brooke and jake."
Prove it?

ok proove it, season two lucas = brooke, do i really need to explain this one, the fact Brooke was the one he wanted to be with, the one he looked into his heart and found? if i do well i'm just going to reply with watch the season it would be easier. and Peyton when her father asked her to follow her heart she went to Jake. thats was the moments i was referring to.

Doesn't the fact that he's written TWO books about her speak for itself?

ok, first book, was not just about Peyton and Lucas, it was about all of them, he just happened to be with Peyton when he wrote it, ofcourse its going to be about them in many respects, at the time he loved her. second book, this is a tough one, seeing its a fictional story about a guy and a comet, guy does not have sexual or romantic feelings for comet, i think this whole comet anology is being stretched, yes i think it means something, but i'm not going to get into this comet debate. i'm going to just wait for the show to sort it out.

How about the fact that she can to Tree Hill to see him! She could have gone to Savannah to see Jake, but she didn't.

I'm going to assume you meant season 5. You are so right in a show called One TREE HILL where the core characters are Lucas, Nathan, Haley, Peyton and Brooke, Peyton could have so moved to Savannah to see Jake who is played by a guy busy with his own show. That storyline was so open to the writers, why didn't i think of that scenario. I am kicking myself.

"leyton were pushed together"
Now that's a bunch of BS. In Season Three, when Jake told Peyton that she was in love with Lucas, she didn't suddenly go, "Oh yeah. You're right. See ya!" Yeah, Jake gave a puch in the right direction, which is why he totally rocks, but it was with those flashbacks that Peyton realise that Jake was right, and she loved Lucas. And how was HE forced to be with Peyton by Brooke! If you're talking about 409 when she said "Go," then you're kidding yourself. He would have gone anyway!

Ok i liked season 4 but for one aspect, they divided the characters, Brooke and Rachel, Haley and Nathan and Peyton and Lucas, two by two, pretty much every scene leyton were together, thats why i think the show pushed them together. they didn't get back together until their true loves told them to(well they didn't did they, the fact remains that Leyton didn't happen until Jake told peyton to go to Luke and Brooke told Lucas to go to Peyton, you can't change that simple fact though true loves was a little close minded of me to use), it killed me watching that, why did teh writers to that, instead of getting lucas and peyton together naturally they tortured us by having them be handed over by their others, as if not by their own choice but because others told them to be together, arghh. (i express my own feelings how taht was wrong, i think the writers could have done it better, they didn't need those 'go' scenes, i am not kidding myself i just don't think that was the right way for leyton to happen, it adds confusion to the situation)

"hey the ball went in thats gotta mean something."
Yeah... that he's a good basketball player
duur

even luke doubted he could do it blind folded, that was just me using two cute brucas moments to end up my little rant. seeing that brucas is being undermined so much by the writers i like to remind myself why i go for this couple.

in the start of season 1 i thought brooke was a bit bitchy cuz hey it was just the start but i was really happy when it turns out that she was really concerned for peyton and all. but i started to be a brucas fan from then. also i just really wonder how do they (the chartacters) know that it's true love for sure. i mean yeah for leyton it was they were meant to be together but is it really? is peyton the first thing he thinks about in the morning? last one at night? the one who still gives you tingles all over when you see them. their love triangle is really messed up and both brucas and leyton fans have proof that THEY are meant to be together. maybe yes and maybe no right? and is their love like naley?? i mean lucas should really make up his mind cuz i mean trouble with peyton he went to lindsey then also the kiss he gave brooke when peyton said no to the engagement. i still favor brucas so much more and all and have reasons too. but i think they all keep getting problems which clouds their judgement as well and the choice is always peyton or brooke. until they are in a stage that they have no one(i mean no realtionship) and the person they truly love no matter what happens in life will be i think either brooke or peyton, this debate will never end. brucas fans will root for brucas and leyton fans will root for leyton.

"yeah i can, Peyton told Brooke her feelings about Lucas in season three because she wanted to be honest, then why did she never tell Lucas, that dishonesty, that lie, is what erks me most about Peyton and Leyton. There Lucas was not really understanding what went wrong with Brooke, still wanting to win her back and Peyton could have been honest could have maybe told Lucas that she'd told Brooke her feelings about him, but she never did, i don't think Lucas would have remained all buddy like with Peyton if she'd told HIM the truth.
I think that was a selfish act on her part, I think her getting with Lucas while he was dating Brooke was selfish and i know she ended things, but that was too late and it doesnt erase she was elfish earlier. and her behaviour in season 5 with lindsey, don't get me started with that. it seems to me that Peyton has a tendency to push Lucas away until he's with someone else.
these acts in my opinion are the worst that Peyton commits, other than how she goes about her relationship with lucas i can not think of one bad thing peyton's done (hmmm, drugs, but that was once and experimenting and she like didn't need to be told it was wrong, she never did it again, so i guess theres drugs but i don't know about that one)she's a great person, and i personally think that the worst things she's ever done has been to get Lucas."

Ok, in Season 4 right? Personally, I think that was the least selfish thing she did. She asked Lucas who he wants when his dreams came true, he said Brooke, (before the moment of clarity), and she helped him to try get her back. What could she say "I'm gonna help you get her back... Oh, yeah, I love you, but I'm gonna help!" She wasn't being selfish because she was putting what she wanted behind for what he (at the time) wanted.

I suppose it was pretty mean going behind Brookes back, but you just said you were over it. Plus, you're putting ALL the blame on Peyton, which is the most annoying thing! Lucas was just as (actually, he was MORE keen) to go behind Brooke's back with her best friend... but you just said you were over it so...?

And yeah, she's been bitchy towards Lindsey, and it was wrong of her to kiss Lucas when he was with Lindsey, but I still go with the whole he kissed her back. But in the episode immediately after that, once again, she sacrificed her happiness for his.

"the fact remains that Leyton didn't happen until Jake told peyton to go to Luke and Brooke told Lucas to go to Peyton, you can't change that simple fact"
Ok... yeah, fair do's, but as I said in the previous post, that in Peyton's case she needed a push in the right direction. I didn't like the whole "go" thing because it did add confusion, but I think it was a sign that Brooke was happy for them + that she wasn't going to be all bitchy about it. Also, so that some die hard Brooke // Brucas fans wouldn't be all "God! How could they start making out when Brooke was in the room!" And Jake never actually said "Go be with Lucas." Her dad told her to follow her heart, and Jake thought she went the wrong way about it. In her heart, she wanted the family and security that Jake had, so she went to him, but the family and security wasn't her TLA.

And as for the Season 2 thing, to me, it reeally didn't make ANY sense. Here's exactly what Nathan said:

"but you know there’s a girl you had feelings for. "
Right, you can say that's Brooke, but Lucas didn't have feelings for Brooke prior to that night. He even told Brooke... in season 3 some time. Nathan also said that the girl was slipping away. Now watch any of Leyton's scenes in S2, and you can CLEARLY tell that Peyton was the one slipping away. I think that's part of the reason I don't like Brucas. Lucas's sudden "realisation" seemed too random. I guess you could say that about Leyton in 409, but he had the cool flashback... doesn't mean that much, yeah, but atleast it was more.

"ok, first book, was not just about Peyton and Lucas, it was about all of them, he just happened to be with Peyton when he wrote it"
Yeah, but he WASN'T with Peyton during the editing. He could have done whatever to it back then. Plus seeing as neither of us have read the book, I guess we can't really say what's its about, but I'm going by what Brooke said. "The guy wrote a whole Book about you." And I think someone said something about it practically being a love letter to her. As for the second one... that's a whole other debate.

"that was just me using two cute brucas moments to end up my little rant. seeing that brucas is being undermined so much by the writers i like to remind myself why i go for this couple."
Fair do's.

Can I just say that there've been a ton of Brucas debaters who stick with the whole "I hate Pucas, they have no chemistry. Brucas have tons!" arguments, so yeah... you're a good debater. :)

with nobody blaming jack and rose about cheating, well...it's JACK and ROSE. Rose was dating CAL! he was an idiot! a jerk who treated rose like crap. We would have all been mad if rose didn't run off with jack and cheat, lol. With Ross and Rachel, there was the whole "we were on a break" thing. So the "cheating" was debatable. I don't know that Ellie show, never watched it so I can't talk about that one. but with Leyton, they did cheat. there was no doubt about it and there was no argument. That's why ppl hate peyton/leyton for it. Brooke was the victim in this scenario and there were a LOT of brucas fans who loved brucas and hated what leyton did. but it doesn't mean leyton aren't as true love as jack/rose or ross/rachel.

I'm not trying to convert brucas fans. but my argument for them with the whole true love thing is that why was brooke unhappy with luke most of the time? If Brooke was luke's true love, wouldn't he have let her all the way in (as brooke cried out "why won't you ever let me all the way in" in 322), wouldn't he have called her more often (luke - "brooke, you never called me back" brooke - "now you know how I feel" 4.01), wouldn't they have had meaningful conversations no matter how long they've been dating (by s4e1 brooke felt they "went days without a meaningful conversation"), wouldn't luke have chosen brooke instead of running to peyton the very morning he and brooke reunited (s3e9 I think), wouldn't he have all around treated her better??? Look at the way he treated peyton? Yeah ppl think leyton was thrown together in s4, but that's only cause they had so many scenes together! They spent more time together than brucas ever did. They opened up to eachother and had meaningful convos all the time. That's the way serious relationships are supposed to be. That may have bored ppl, but in my opinion, that's true love, not pushed together.

Brucas fans have the right to be brucas fans, no doubt! but I think brooke deserves better than luke. She was miserable by the end cause luke never treated her right. I think a lot of brucas fans cling to the good times brucas had, but they don't have that anymore. By s4e8 brucas agreed that they just don't have that love like whitey described in his speech. Doesn't brooke deserve that? Doesn't luke? They shouldn't settle. If luke changed and his heart was truly with brooke someday, then maybe they'd have a chance again. but right now, leyton fan or not, luke's heart is with peyton. S5 was a testament to that.

"With Ross and Rachel, there was the whole "we were on a break" thing. So the "cheating" was debatable. I don't know that Ellie show, never watched it so I can't talk about that one."
Fair do's with Jack and Rose, Cal was an ass, but for the whole Ross and Rachel thing, I meant Julie in Season Two, and at the end of Season 3 Bonnie (was that her name? The one that shaved her head...). Rose never loved Cal, but you could tell that Ross atleast liked Julie and Bonnie. And Noah and Allie... The Notebook? Yeah, Allie was engaged to someone and she visited Noah and... they got it on basically. As for the whole "We were on a break" thing... whole other story!

But I think the difference is that Julie, Bonnie and Lon were never as likeable as Brooke, and though I still think that Leyton were designed as soulmates, I think with the other couples, it was waaaay more obvious. Like, Ten seasons / 2-3 hour films more obvious.

but again, Julie and Bonnie were not regulars on the show so they were forgetteable. and ross never continually snuck around. it was one kiss behind bonnie & julie's back then me made his decision. and with the notebook, I forget the guy's name who allie was engaged to, but he wasn't a star in the movie. he came on in the movie later so we didn't get a chance to know and love him. he was simply "the guy in the way" of noah and allie.

His name was Lan. Or something like that!
I think that Brucas, from the start, was designed to be what was getting in the way of Lucas and Peyton. Think about it. From the very first episode it was made so that Lucas and Peyton were supposed to be together. But she flakes and he feels rejected so he goes for the girl he knows won't reject him. And sure he takes a while but finally he realises that he "has to be" with Peyton because he can feel it in his heart! He loves her and she loves him!
Yes Lucas made the shot and yes he fought for Brooke. But come on like you said, he's an amazing basketball player. And he knows the rivercourt like the back of his hand. He even said that to Nathan. So is it a shock he made the same shot he's made about a million times before?
And their season 4 reltionship wasn't built on a lie. Peyton loved Luke. So much so that she wantes him to be happy. ANd even though she couldn't stand to ee them together if that's what would make Luke happy she was willing to help him get her back! If that's not true love I dunno what is!
Brucas was cute. I'm not gonna deny that. ANd some of the most romantic moments on the show belongs to them. But a great majority of them belong to Leyton.
Lucas continuously does everything for Peyton. Leaves Brooke the night the morning afetr they declare their love! Leaves her to find Peyton in the school. Goes against her wishes and talks to Peyton at the wedding. He couldn't ever cut Peyton out. ANd Ithink that's what killed Brucas. The fact that nio matter how close they got, Lucas could never let go of Peyton. And deep down Brooke knew they weren't destined but Leyton were!

i know its not fair but i think Peyton does get more dissing about the cheating than Lucas does, but then again i think thats the way it is in real life. It wasn't so much that they cheated and went behind Brooke's back but there was the added bonus that Brooke was Peyton's best friend which adds a whole new problem to the scenario. From a personal experience a similar scenario ripped my family apart, so i guess i judge more harshly. but when i talk to my friends just girl chat and all thats a thing that comes up, the whole what if your partner cheats with your friend? and every person i know has always said that they would be angrier (and all those other emotions) at their friend.

i agree that at the moment luke's heart is with peyton (though as a brucas and jeyton fan i shake my head and wonder why)and i want them to sort it out, i was completely happy with them getting together in season 4, i didn't like how it was written but i think that leyton need to happen because they never got their chance and its unfair to viewers that they never got to see them as a couple, and i still think its needs to happen because we never got to see their break up. really leyton fans have been ripped off, and as much as i know leyton need another shot so they can sort out their problems i still am confident Brucas will find their way back to each other and hopeful Jake will return.

Just in response to the Dawson's Creek discussion, I don't think you can use other couples from totally different shows to back up your ship.

I for one LOVED Pacey and Joey together, just because their relationship wasn't obvious from day one didn't mean they weren’t destined to be together.

I support leyton 100% but I'll admit that Lucas and Brooke had a nice relationship when they were together. But endgame isn't going to be decided based on Dawson's Creek or Smallville or anything else, it's going to be based on what the writers want for the characters. They're not just going to copy and paste a storyline from another show; I mean OTH is original guys! That's one of the reasons why we love it, right?

i wasn't using it to back my ship, i was using these couples as examples about how the supposed meant to be couples aren't always meant to be, and saying a couple is meant to be is a crap defence. oth is original, i love it, they took a risk skipping a show five years, and lol, now DH is doing the same thing i hear.
i shoulda posted this thing it in brucas spot but at the time didnt know about it.

well where do i start?
first of all i have been a major brucas shipper since forever, the same amount of time i have hated peyton. now i know everyone goes on about s1 and how the whole cheating thing was an awful thing to do, but the cheating is not what annoyed me about that. it's the fact they fooled around behind brooke's back for ages, then literally the same episode lucas finally breaks up with brooke and it's okay for them to be together, peyton suddenly has the urge to be best friend again because 'she doesn't want to hurt anymore than she already has' That's the FIRST bit of evidence that shows peyton only wants lucas when she can't have him. then she encourages brooke to go after lucas in s2 then when they begin dating in season 3, she kisses him and then tears apart their relationship by telling brooke she has 'feelings' for lucas, I'll tell you what they 'feelings', actually 'feeling' is, JEALOUSY! She can't stand that lucas is happy with brooke, I mean she was quite happy to be with the love of her life jake in s2 because brucas weren't together, but when jake sends her back to tree hill, the first thing she does is confess her undying love for lucas? That's the second bit of evidence that shows you she only 'loves' him when he's with brooke. Then, to top it all off, while she's dating lucas in s4, she is constantly pushing him away and making things difficult for him, again because it's okay for them to be together, she's not interested. so the next person who says to me leyton are 'true love always' is talking crap. 'always' doesn't mean 'only when he's dating my best-friend'. I'm also not gonna sit here and say brucas will be together in the end, i mean i would love it if they were, but even if it's lindsay he ends up with, i will be happy, just aslong as it's not Peyton. So, actually it's not leyton i hate, it's peyton.

k, brucasforever-x...i'm sick of ppl saying she only wants luke when she can't have him. watch this clip: link

peyton wanted luke before he was with brooke! The first time (s1) she and luke screwed up and snuck around. Second time (s3) she waited for luke (once brucas was over) then she went for him. She wasn't jealous, she was just in love. She planned on marrying jake till he helped her realize where her heart truly lies. She can't help who she loves. She never stopped loving him.

and s4??? She only pushed him away in eppy 11 cause she was afraid she was cursed. By the end, the two were inseparable. Wasn't it luke who said to brooke "ever since we got together it was like you were just waiting to push me away". Did he ever say that to peyton??? I think not! The two were attached at the hip. You can love and hate whoever you want, but please get your facts straight.

okay abs07, first of all that clip you sent proves my point. when they went to the party on s1 and peyton and lucas went up to room, she walked away from him even though there was nothing stopping them being together, then, in that clip you posted in your message, she admits she she came to his house that night because she knew he had been out with Brooke, so theres my point proven. second of all, lucas had not right to say that to brooke because she had just found that he had kissed her 'best-friend' AGAIN so i think she's allowed to be mad and the fact you said they were attatched at the also proves my point that she is too dependant on other people, especially guys, she jumps from one relationship to another, so actually my facts are pretty accurate.

I don't agree at all. All Peyton knew about Luke and Brooke was that they went out on a date. I guess she thought that she had him or something and then se realised that the thoughtof the two of them together realy upset her so she went to his room to tell him she loved him. And that scene both deleted and aired shows them having a discussion about their relationship. Peyton and Brooke were best friends. So she wouldn't have just risked their friendship for a fling!
Peyton loved Luke so much that she wanted him to be happy. And when she tried to push him away because she loved him so much that se didn't want anything to happen to him. The conversation she had with Haley. It just shos how deeply in love she was with him. Now does that seem ike the act of a person who is just after someone because she can't have them? Because it seems she can have him. I know that Luke at one staedid love Brooke. But do you ever remember a speach Luke made to Brooke as deep as I came back from the dead for you? The standing in the rain was cute but do you think it even comes close? Everything in oth always comes back to Lucas and Peyton. Peyton came back for Luke. She didn't know she couldn't have him. And she fought for him. And gave him up BECAUSE SHE LOVES HIM!!
They are meant to be! It's obvious. Mark said it and Chad said it. Maybe not as directly as that. But still. And just like Haley said. "I don't see Brooke and Lucas as an epic romance"

brucasforever did you WATCH the video? She specifically said "I wanted you BEFORE that; I was just afraid to admit my feelings" (as in BEFORE she knew brucas went on a date) . Were you not listening? it doesn't prove your point, you're contradicting the video.

and the fact that leyton was attached at the hip doesn't make peyton dependent, it makes leyton in LOVE. I guess when brucas were so lovey dovey in s3 at first then brooke was dependent??? No. love is love. leyton had more of it cause they spent a LOT more time together in s4 than brucas did in s3. and if I remember correctly, it was luke who was constantly going to see peyton, not the other way around. Peyton went to see luke a lot too. they were simply in love and wanted to spent every moment together. you can interpret it the way you want.

Well obviously she's gonna say that she wanted him before that, she's not gonna turn around and admit that she's only interested now coz he's with brooke, and if she did want him then why did she walk away? why did she say no to his proposal? why did she encourage brooke to go after him in s2? why did she wanna marry jake? And it's also quite obvious she didn't feel one single pang of guilt for cheating the first time or she wouldn't have done it again. and peyton had absolutely no right to be the slightest bit mad at brooke in s4 wen she found out about her sleeping with nathan, A = You can bearly call what they had a relationship all they did was fight and break-up B = They were spilt up at the time (unlike some people) C = Brooke forgave her everytime she hurt her, peyton wasn't hurt, she was just mad that whatever she can do, brooke can do better.

you can believe peyton's lying [about wanting him before she knew about him and brooke] but don't you remember when she was brooding in her bedroom and she redrew the moment she had with luke at nathan's party (107), and she wrote "now we CAN have it (instead of "can't" like she wrote before)? and don't you remember at that moment that she called luke but he was out with brooke? Peyton had no idea what luke was doing at that point when she tried to get a hold of him. That's cold hard facts. So when peyton told luke she wanted him before she knew about brooke there was no lie in her eyes and episode 1.09 is proof. You're asking why did she walk away (107) when luke wanted "everything" with her, but she answers your question in that same vid link I posted above: "I was afraid to admit my feelings". We all know peyton had emotional baggage and attachment issues. Then she walked away after luke's accident cause she didn't want to hurt brooke. As for her guilt in s1, why do you think she broke up with lucas??? Ofcourse she felt guilt! She was in LOVE with luke and let him go. Yes, she kissed him in the hotel and things got heated, but then she walked away cause she didn't want to do that to her best friend ("she's my best friend & your girlfriend; I can't do this to her; we are horrible rotten ppl..." and the list goes on). It was LUKE who persisted till she gave in; don't put it all on peyton. They BOTH screwed up. she's grown alot from that since than (look at s4/5).
in s2, her encouraging brooke to go after him in s2 just shows what a good friend she is/is trying to be cause she messed things up in s1. It doesn't mean she stopped loving luke; she just had a journey to walk.
She wanted to marry jake only because luke was taken (but she didn't want to admit that in her heart - but jake helped her out). and she never "did it again" (cheated with luke). That kiss in the library (316) was between friends. She was thanking him & potentially saying goodbye in case she didn't make it. The kiss meant NOTHING more. That could have been laley kissing - there was no heat or passion - it was barely a peck. Nothing. The girl was bleeding to death. romance was not on her mind. They kissed each other and knew it wasn't a romantic moment (luke said it himself). They had a history so that's why when brooke found out, her insecurities resurfaced and she reacted the way she did. It's all circumstantial, don't mix the two up.
Her saying "someday" to luke's proposal did not mean no. She said point BLANK "I want to marry you someday; in a year". She was smart enough for the both of them to know luke's proposal was fueled by his insecurities about them being apart so much. They were 19, and had barely began their careers (they weren't financially/mentally ready). but LUKE took Peyton's reasoning as a "no" and HE walked away. SHE came back to Tree Hill for him. She went to the book signing to get back with him (and he eventually found out). She FAUGHT for him when she returned to tree hill. How does that say she doesn't want him?

about brathan in s4 - DID you not WATCH breyton's fight in 415??? By then, it wasn't truly about that - she was mad, but she would have forgiven her as brooke forgave her eventually in s1. It was the fact that peyton had one of the worst years of her life (losing ellie, getting shot, getting attacked by Ian) and she needed her best friend, but brooke cut peyton out cause she was HONEST with her in s3. we all know brooke reacted the way she did to peyton's honesty because of her insecurities of leyton's past. but STILL, peyton was honest with brooke (to avoid repeating the same mistakes she made in s1) but brooke was NEVER honest with her. I'm not defending what peyton did in s1, but don't you see the hypocrisy?? Brooke made fun of Peyton's mom's death! when before she cried with her; and now she used it as a punch line to make fun of her all because peyton was honest with her. If you don't get that I dunno what do tell you. a lot of brucas fans I talked to understand that. You should too: start watching from 1:13 - link

you SAW brooke's face when peyton said those words (415). You know brooke knew peyton was right to be upset in that moment. If even brooke knew, so should you.

its an opinion if thats how she wants to fn view it she can. shes not messing with facts shes simply explaining how she interpretated what happened. people are allowed to have their own opinions.

And thank you brucasforever-x for being the first one to actually answer the question i originally asked and used this forum topic for its intended use and not for a debate.

broody_4_cheery I did tell her she can believe what she wants. did you see my first line I wrote? I always say ppl have the right to their opinion so please don't start making me look like I'm trying to convert her or belittle her opinion. and the way she words her arguments doesn't make it sound like an opinion, it makes it sound like she's saying them as a fact so ofcourse i'll debate on it cause we all have different interpretation of "facts" on OTH. if she didn't wanna debate, she would have ended it and said: "I have the right to my opinion and I don't want to debate." but she's been debating with me too. so i'm not gonna ignore her if she replies. It's a leyton vs brucas forum what did u expect? lol. last time I checked ppl debate all the time in forums like these. sorry if my words were offensive, but I didn't throw any insults in with my debate. I was simply expressing my opinion as well.

Thank You Broody_4_Cheery, I'm Glad Someone Understands I'm Not Trying To Cause An Arguement, I'm Only Expressing My Interpretations Of The Show. Fair Enough, Peyton Was Trying To Be Honest With Brooke and She Kinda Flew Off The Handle, But If Your Best Friend Who Had A History With Your Boyfriend Told She Had Feelings For Him, Would You Just Let It Go? As For Her Being Afraid Of her Feelings, That's Every LPers Excuse For Her Behaving The Way She Did, But What Does It Even Mean? Brooke Was Afraid Of Her Feelings In S3 Because She Had Already Had Her Heartbroken By The Two people She Loved The Most, That Gives Her The Right To Be Afraid. As For The Fight In S4, How Can Peyton Possibly Expect Brooke To Be There For Her When She Needs Her Because She's Having The Worst Year Of Her Life? Who Was There For Brooke When She Was The Worst Year Of Her Life, Obviously Brooke's Problems Weren't As Bad As Her 2nd Mother Dying or Being Shot Or Stalked, But To Brooke They Would Have Been Unbearable. She Had No Boyfriend or Best Friend There For Her Either, Which Makes Peyton's Constant Self-Pity So Annoying.

Brucasforever, I don't see this as an argument. it's a brucasvsleyton forum, ofcourse there will be debates.
you're justifying brooke's insecure feelings but don't you get that peyton lost her mom when she was young. You may not understand what kind of mindset that puts a girl in, but when you grow up without a mom, you're more susceptible to having emotional attachment issues. Being afraid to open up to ppl. a mom is important in a girl's life when it comes to getting in touch with your emotions and opening up. I can relate to Peyton in that sense cause I'm dealing with the same emotional attachment problems cause I basically didn't have a mom growing up either. Peyton being afraid of admitting her feelings is not an LPer excuse. It's what peyton admitted to in the show.

Peyton didn't expect brooke to be there for her. She had hoped. and last time I checked brooke had ppl (chase, rachel, haley, mouth etc.). Peyton was literally alone till luke came along. Her brother came for a while but he left just like most ppl in her life leave. I don't think you'd ever get that unless you lived it. It takes a toll on the heart and peyton's had to go through alot. She's also grown to be more independent cause of it. but no one can flip a switch. it takes time to build strength and character. I'm sure there are ppl who have gotten stronger alot faster than peyton, but at least she got there. she's human. not everybody grows strong at the same rate. She's been knocked down so often she rarely gets the chance or time to heal. I think I get it cause I've had similar circumstances (minus the life threatening stuff:P). I'm glad you acknowledged that brooke hasn't had it anywhere NEAR as bad as peyton. Maybe you'll understand that ppl are aloud to be a little self piteous when they go through terrible ordeals if brooke gets attacked someday. She's strong now, yes, but she's never gone through anything close to what peyton's gone through.

I understand where you're coming from interpreting it that way (as a brucas fan/peyton hater) but you don't seem to understand it from another point of view at all. I could go on about brooke's shortcomings but that has nothing to do with this poll; you're starting to steer way off the debate forum topic so let's just agree to disagree, cause we could debate forever :S

Yes, Your Right We Could Debate For Ever But I Don't See How I'm Steering Off The Topic, I'm Comparing The Two Relationships Which Involves Comparing The Characters In Them. And The Last Time I Checked, Chase and Rachel WEREN'T In S1 Of One Tree Hill Therefore They Weren't There For Her, Haley Wasn't Friends With Her And Excluded Her From The Party and She Wasn't Great Friends With Mouth Then Either, So She Didn't Have Anyone. As For Peyton Not Having A Mom, Yeah Her Mom Died But Brooke Grew Up Without A Mom As Well. She Might Not Have Been Dead, But She Had No Time For Brooke. Peyton's Also Not The Only Person That's Had People Leave Her Yet She Acts Like She Is; Lucas' Uncle Was Murdered By His Father and His Fiancee Ditched Him At The Alter, Nathan's Wife Ran Away And Joined A Music Tour Without Him and Brooke's Parents Moved To California Without Her Then She Had Angie Taken Off Her. And I Realize A Girl Having Mother Is Important, But Isn't It Equally As Important For A Boy To Have A Father? Lucas Didn't Have A Father But You Don't See Him Suffering With Commitment Issues. As Soon As Peyton Stops Acting Like The Wounded Victim I Might Begin To Like Her.

just my random thoughts that that caused to pop up, the whole parent thing. the way i see brooke and peyton is that both were pretty much screwed parent wise, both of them had parents who were never around, like brooke said she had a no parent household, and peyton lost her mother and her father was always away working, but they had two differences, where as brooke was denied the basic right all children should have (the unconditional love of a parent) peyton had that, sure her mom died but for those nine or so years she had her mum anna she was loved and cherished, and though her father is away alot he undeniably loves and adores peyton, peyton had a great relationship with her adoptive parents, even with ellie she had that love, something brooke was denied. i always so brookes behaviour as trying to find love in all the wrong places, trying to feel like she matters because the people who should make her feel that way (her parents) never did. and peyton she had all those feelings but sadly the people she loves and who love her have a tendency to never be there, she had a perfect family and it was ripped from her in a way that no one should have to go through.
brooke and peytons parent issues reminds me of me and my best friend jondy, we are like sisters, have known each other forever and have been close friends since we were eleven. jondy was 13 when her mother died of cancer, she'd already lost a sister to breast cancer when she was like 5, loosing her mother and sister had a huge impact of jondy's teen years, personality wise she was so like peyton its not funny, all dark and broody and bitchy, with one look she can cut you down, but the thing is she changd as she got older, shes 20 now and she is so different, its hard but its been years and shes moved on, shes such a happy person (still trying to get use to that), shes about to get a stepmum she loves and shes got a boyfriend shes crazy about (again still getting use to that seeing she had a 2 year relationship with another girl), damn that girl is so bloody happy. and then theres me, none of my parents died and i couldnt imagine what that must feel like but im more like brooke and i do know wat it feels like to be rejected and unloved by your parents, my dad was never around when i was younger, he left when i was nine leaving my mum to raise 5 kids by herself, my mum and i have a love hate relationship, i know what its like to not feel good enough for my mother, to not feel love or acceptance, she looks at me but she doesnt really know me, and my father not only rejected me once but i got into contact with him when i was seventeen through email, yeah for a guy who apparently missed his kids so much he didnt seem to care about me that much, i was the only one of five kids who was willing to give him a second chance and he only bothered with me for a year. being rejected once by my own father was hard but twice, bloody twice. to say i have issues is an understatement, i can love people so much, my friends are my family, but i just find it completely impossible to trust people, especially in relationships.
so i guess i sympathise more with brooke, it may look like she hasn't been through as much, but that doesnt lessen the impact of what she has been through, the pain and emotions still there. as they say it is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.

broody4cheery, sorry for your circumstances. you sound like a strong woman. and I can sympathize with you about being rejected by a parent; my mother specifically, time and time again. so i'm working on having faith in my loved ones and letting them in. cause I don't trust most ppl...

brucasforever, that's a very good point that peyton's not the only one who suffered (I thought we were finished debating but you've got me going again, lol :P) :

but you saw how luke screwed up time and time again because of his lack of a father figure. and at least he had keith as a guide throughout (till he died)...and look at luke in s5. what a moron, lol. The guy can't be alone. he's always brooding over some girl. when he loses her he either goes to another one, sleeps with random ppl or gets drunk for days on end.

nathan was a MESS in s2 we all know that. he was also a prick for s1 (thanks to dan's expert fathering techniques). so he reacted to his broken home too. he rebelled.
haley's home life was actually pretty decent and look how she turned out: the most reponsible of them all. She screwed up royally only once.

and I know brooke was pretty alone in s1 and her mom&dad weren't around, but look how she was. she just responded differently. she didn't act like a wounded victim, she was a...well lack for a better word, an "open muffin shop" to all the guys in tree hill. Not to mention she was a drunk every other minute. Ppl react differently to broken homes; some rebel (brooke), and some crawl into a shell (peyton) - and alot of them eventually let their tragedies make them stronger (breyton; lathan). Like broody4cheery said, brooke had a load of insecurities to go with her rebellious ways back in the previous seasons (especially s1). Before luke ever cheated on her, brooke even said she felt inferior to him and constantly felt she had to be better. she didn't have a mom there to build up her confidence. so don't you see? Peyton's self piteous ways back in the first two seasons were her way of reacting to her circumstances (which you must admit are worse than anyone elses with getting attacked, shot and losing two moms - one of which she found out was adoptive and the other one abandoned her); brooke's rebellious free-lance ways was her way of reacting (there's no cookie cutter formula of how ppl react to circumstances - but ppl ALL react someway eventually; and for young ones like our cast, they usually react in a destructive, unhealthy way at first). I'm sure peyton's way of reacting was annoying to you so i won't try and convince you to be less annoyed; i'm just trying to make you understand that brooke, nate and luke didn't react to their circumstances in the best way either. They're human. The key is, they've all gotten stronger in the end. They've all grown. and you gotta give peyton some credit: yes she mourned losing luke this season (which I'm sure annoyed you), but she also helped a bunch of ppl along the way (Mia, Haley with music, Brooke with her mom, Lindsey - to get back with luke, Nate at the hospital, that teenage girl living at her old house, and Luke). She's grown substancially - instead of hiding in her shell, she grieved, yes, but also touched lives. So do you at least see that she's improving?

abs07, shockingly, I do agree with your last statement, Peyton is slightly improving and focused less time on her own problems this season and more on helping others, although she still annoyed the hell outta me sometimes. I also get what your saying about the other characters reacting differently to their losses and I wasn't as much critising Peyton for how she dealt with people leaving her, the point I was trying to make was that she sometimes behaves like the whole world is against her and that she's the only person that bad things happen to when she's not. I also agree with cheery4broody, most people think Brooke was a slut who slept with and dated any boy she met when all she was doing was desperately searching for someone to love her unconditionly and I think the only person she ever found that love with was Lucas. The reason she drank so much too was her way of tryin to be someone else that people would like, she was insecure and always felt like she was never good enough and she probobly thought that by drinking she would become more of a person that people would enjoy having around. And about everyone's various problems, yeah sure Peyton's were worse compared to eveyone elses in her eyes, but you can't belittle the problems of everyone else just because they weren't as life-threatening or heart-breaking as peytons, to each individual character and their fans, their problems were just as hurtful and upsetting and it took every character as much as strength as peyton to pull themselves together and face their demons. I think if everyone (INCLUDING MYSELF) took a step back and opened our minds, we would see that theres not one character that's had it easy these last five seasons and that each character has become a better, stronger person because of them and that each relationship (brucas, naley, leyton) and friendship (breyton, lathan, laley) has developed beyond what anyone could have expected the show first began and that's what connects every One Tree Hill fan, no matter what couple they ship or character they favourite, it's the love for the show that brings us all together.

i do believe peyton is a strong person, but im a huge jeyton fan, and i loved that relationship because i felt that jake gave peyton a strength and self confidence which she doesnt get with lucas, ive always loved peyton, i always saw her point of view, because she has survived alot, and she makes mistakes just like everybody else, but i feel like peyton was always such a mature person because she was forced to grow up too early, but she hasnt really developed as much as the other characters. she seems to take three steps forward then two steps back repeating the same lesson over and over again, but shes not a horrible person shes just not perfect, nobody is, and im sure that as the show goes on peyton will truely find herself and have that character developement that is owed to her.

brucasforever I don't believe it...I think we're starting to find common ground! lol. anyhow, I never meant to belittle everyone else's problems though...but I do think peyton's was worse (that's not to say ppl didn't have demons to fight and strength to build up in order to do it). I think she had to come out of a much darker place with the degree of tragedies that hit her over and over again. The poor girl kept getting DRASTIC curve balls pretty much every season (and yes everyone else had crazy curve balls, but again, i'm sure you know they were not to the degree peyton had). I can't make you think peyton didn't come off like "the world was against her and that she was the only person who has bad things happen to her"...but I don't think she came off like that (so that's something we can agree to disagree on). I DO think she had her moments where she was very self piteous (mostly in s2 - MAN that got annoying at times, lol; some in s3, but she nipped that in the butt fast enough especially once she made her peace with Ellie). by the end of s3 I believe she reached a new level of maturity which has blossomed (with some stumbles along the way, but that's human) over the years.

I'm glad you've seen that peyton "has" been improving and I hope that my mentioning that everyone's gone through a LOT too has brought us to a meeting point half way :)

I have no time to read all the replies in this thread, they're so long! Anyway, I'm gonna give my side.

Don't you think that Peyton came into the picture only because of the divorce thing? And about Lucas saving Peyton, that wouldn't mean he really was not in love with Brooke! Of course, he would save her because she is Brooke's BF! And Peyton took advantage of that. Sure Brooke has insecurities, who doesn't? Only Brooke is vocal about it, I think she is insecure because people see her in a certain way, like she's a slut and she's all about sex. I'm sure Peyton has a lot of insecurities too.

The only reason I see why Peyton and Lucas aren't together is because Peyton lies and hides how she really feels and then she breaks the truth @ the wrong time. It is unfair when Brucas broke up for the second time that Lucas thinks Brooke is the problem. And I hate it that Brooke didn't fight it, maybe because she's really afraid of getting hurt again. Maybe she thinks that Peyton wouldn't move on and let her and Lucas be happy so she gave it up.

I think men cannot be trusted, that they would cheat if they'd like to. So I am not putting Lucas on the hot seat.

And I just wanna ask all of you, if Lucas took the shot for Peyton and not Brooke, would you judge it differently? I read something like he took the shot million times before and apparently the reply is from a Leyton fan, would you think it was destiny if it was for Peyton?

brattynemz:

No, I don't think peyton came into the picture because of the divorce thing. Mark Schwahn said in an interview that Leyton was always planned. Plus in the s1 box set, mark already had 409 written. and I never said luke wasn't in love with brooke. It just didn't go deep enough (at least not as deep as it did with peyton - hence the "luke constantly choosing peyton over brooke" debacle.). Yes everyone has insecurities, but brooke's were never ceasing - which always puts an unhealthy strain on the relationship. If she truly forgave leyton she should have trusted them more than she did. You can paint the library kiss a million colors, but it was completely innocent. Her insecurities as a "slut/all about sex" were in season 1. Her insecurities in s2/3 were about leyton's past. she said she forgave, but she could not put it behind her because she knew deep down that she was standing in the way of leyton the whole time (Luke chose to be with peyton the morning after he and brooke reunited in 309; "The boy I love saved the girl I love; and it's the girl that he loves too; I used to be the lindsey between lucas and peyton and trust me it was NOT a good place to be; It has always been lucas and peyton; you guys are meant to be together it's the way it's supposed to be"...it goes on and on).

Can you explain how leyton's separation is because of peyton's lies??? she told luke straight up in 505 that they were not prepared to be married. They were nineteen and had their careers ahead of them to pursue. She would have lied if she said yes to luke's proposal cause she knew it was not the right time. Way I see it, there's never a right time to tell a man you have feelings for him if you're talking about peyton confessing to luke in 507 that she still wanted to be with him...kinda like luke confessed to brooke he wanted to be with her in 221 when she was just leaving (when he told peyton she laughed and said "nice timing"). When it comes to love, there's never right timing.

Didn't you watch season 4? Brooke constantly voiced her insecurities about he and peyton ("For the last time, there is nothing going on between me and peyton"). Luke constantly had to reassure brooke that he loved her and wanted to be with her "not peyton" at the time. But brooke knew better. Brooke didn't "fight it" this time cause she knew the truth: her and luke were not meant to be ("we go days without a meaningful conversation" "why didn't you call me when you were away, why didn't you tell me about the kiss, and why won't you ever just let me all the way in???") Brooke was heartbroken because she knew her and luke's relationship was fleeting away. So she was brave enough to end it for both their sakes cause she knew they both deserved better. They deserve the love whitey described in his speech. Speaking of which, Brucas had closure in 408 after going out one last time. So there was no misunderstanding of luke thinking it was brooke or him...they knew it was the both of them.

To me that "shot" was irrelevant. It was a shot, lol. He's a shooting guard. His chances drastically increased when attempting the shot. Luke really wanted to be with brooke in season 3 so he was focused and sure. But peyton remained in his heart regardless...

I can't explain it, I'm sorry. I understand Brooke because I am just like her. So the way I look at it is like this. I feel like there's no need for me to say whatever I feel because I think he should know it (I know it's wrong to assume people should know) so I understand why she didn't talk about it. What can I say, I am just as insecure as her. Afraid of my guy's past - paranoid, as you may call it. No, he hasn't cheated on me (I hope not!) but still I have that feeling. Before was fun, and it scares me that I can't give him the happy life he had before. Even though I know he loves me, I can never control the things around him. Hence, the Peyton thingy. It is different with the OTH line I know, but I want you to understand where I am coming from. So much for sharing, it's making me tear. Haha!

Peyton had many chances of being with Lucas and I don't know why she was not during the earlier seasons. If she wanted it that much, she would've been with him long before. Maybe Brooke is faster. Haha! Kidding aside, I hate it that Peyton went in the way of Brucas. She obviously liked Lucas since I can remember yet she let him be with Brooke and then she backstabbed her. I know sometimes you can't contain your feelings anymore and the kiss only aggravated the situation so the second break up was.. I don't even care anymore. If my boyfriend cheated on me, there wouldn't be a second time.

The kiss was indeed innocent because she thought she was dying. It meant a lot to her that her last kiss be Lucas, the man he loves. And now I wonder would Brooke react the same way if Peyton died n that library! Oooh dark thought.

"she said she forgave, but she could not put it behind her because she knew deep down that she was standing in the way of leyton the whole time"
--> I don't think so. If Lucas constantly reassured brooke that he loved her and wanted to be with her "not peyton", she wouldn't think that she was standing in their way, don't you think?

About the shot, well for you it goes that way. Apparently for some it's not. He could miss just like everyone else but he didn't. The comment "But peyton remained in his heart regardless..." was irrelevant too.

Ooh I'm tired.

Does anyone else see that most Brucas or Brooke fans like her because they relate to her??

Bratty - when I said "peyton remained in his heart" I wasn't speculating. Luke said it. "No matter what happens, you will always be in my heart." (4.19).

I don't wanna rehash the brucas break-up vs peyton. Despite peyton "aggravating" the situation, brucas had their own problems: 3.22 - "I am holding on for dear life but I need you to need me back." Luke says he loves her and she says "how about you show it? Why didn't you call when you were away, why didn't you tell me about the kiss and why don't ever just let me all the way in????" -Brooke. Brooke was heartbroken cause she knew her and Luke just weren't working - despite peyton.

emma_728, ive never noticed that, i think there is always a part of the fans who relate to them and like them because of that but there are also just as many that its the complete opposite, they like the person because they are everything they're not.

OK but haven't you guys noticed, that Brooke and Lucas are way happier as friends, than they ever were as a couple, when they were together it was mostly about sex or something to that effect, but with Peyton it was something so much more. And Im not just saying b/c im a leyotn fan. I love Brooke and personally I think she deserves someone that isnt in love with her best friend

Mark4Ever. I personally believe that friendship is the cornerstone of any relationship that is gonna last. Therefore, no I don't think they are happier as friends, I believe they are maybe more content(more so Brookes POV) with being just friends bc there is less risk that she will ultimately get hurt.
I also disagree that when they were together it was mostly about sex or something to that effect. Yes sex, passion, etc. was a huge aspect of the Brucas relationship. In S1 I will even admit that it was the majority. After S2...NO. From the moment that he professed that he couldn't imagine his life without her and moved her into his room I felt that they had a very strong connection.
If it were about sex they would have been okay with continuing to be friends w/ benefits. IMO. But neither were. Brooke was trying to shield herself from being hurt again, and Lucas was playing along for her sake. When they exchange I love you's...it was passionate, more than friends, and I believe they were most happy then.
Friends for them I think is sorta like a consolation prize. For me it just goes to show how important they are to each other. Maybe now they are content being friends after all this time has passed. I love that about them. It shows how much they care about one another.
With Peyton is was something so much more. Well that is your opinion, but I will agree that they have a deeper intellectual connection, hence they are essentially male/female versions of each other. But as for romantic long-term connection...I question it. I can't fully grasp what it is that Leyton share, bc IMO it is heavily reliant on intellectual similarities, and personal needs. I say that with all respect, bc I know Mark has had Leyton depicted as soulmates and meant to be from the beginning. I just personally do not agree with it.
I think it is odd that Peyton and Lucas do not remain better friends when they are not together. IMO S5 showcased Leyton very poorly. 5.05, being 3 years prior, was the only time Leyton was not reeking havic on OTH. I DO NOT blame Peyton for saying she wanted to wait, in fact I applaud her for that. What I don't understand is why if they were so meant to be; and Lucas loved her enough to spend the rest of his life with her, why he would walk away from all of that? (I know its all his psyche, denial etc. and he was hurt by Peyton's answer but IMO it was indicative of future happenings) Additionally, I'm confused as to why Peyton would turn down his proposal if she DID in fact feel she would marry him SOMEDAY. That is what an engagement is, a promise for the future. She tried to explain that she just wasn't ready now, and I know she regretted it later on, but she didn't regret that decision for the 3 years she was in LA, shitty job and all. What really gets me is why she couldn't just walk in the damn book signing. That if anything is the dream she should be having over and over again, doing it differently and walking in to support a Lucas who is not with Lindsey! By choosing not to go in Peyton really disappointed me.
IMO Peyton and Lucas's actions don't add up. Call it what you want, denial, fear, I don't know anymore. All I do know is that S5 showed an even more immature Leyton than I ever thought possible. From Peyton's Lucas stealing face, to Lucas's drunken I hate you...it was just an escalation of prior offenses.
I mean if Mark is trying to portray Leyton as this epic love, why build up the animosity with miles of separation and obstacles, denials of truth, Leyton's conscious vs. subconscious battles, if only to throw them together again blissfully (S6)
I know some people love the idea of Leyton, it just doesn't resonate with me. And it's not because I like BL. I prefer them, but honestly Mark, and his "soulmates" thing ruined me. You don't choose who you love, you don't know who your soulmate is...love finds you, and your heart not your mind determines who you are truly meant to be with. Mark has done everything in his power, nothing short of physically injecting himself into the series as Max, to create this idea of Leyton as soulmates. I mean Naley, they are the soulmates on the show! Does anyone else think that in writing Leyton, Mark has sorta ruined them? He kinda wrote them as a love or hate type of couple.

Realuvalways, Leyton's psyche will never fully be understood - least of all by brucas fans. From talking to you in the past, it's clear that you are attracted to different types of couples (compared to me or other leyton fans). You don't understand the numerous actions made by lucas and peyton over the years. I do. You may never see it as other leyton fans do, and I think [from our many convos in the past] you can trust that it's not simply my bias talking when I say that their story is a LOT of the reason why I love leyton - even with season 5. For me, it all adds up. I never saw s6 as thrown together, but I can totally understand how non fans (even some leyton fans) see s6 as so abrupt. I and others I'm sure, saw it as a long time coming. I'm proud of the way leyton has been portrayed, but it did hurt to watch s5. mostly because of Luke's actions - WOW; going back to my article on luke's psyche, Luke hadn't grown as much as we thought. that's actually what brought me to write the article; I was thinking about luke's crazy actions in s5, and after really thinking about it, s5 HAD to happen so that Luke could finally learn and grow from his mistakes/issues in s1 (which many ppl dismissed and assumed luke had grown & learned from already). I know we've talked back and forth before so let's not repeat ourselves; I just wanted to respond to your outgoing question concerning ppl's feelings about Mark writing leyton.

lol we have done our share of discussing the subject, and I respect, even admire, your dedication to Leyton. Anyways, I wish I could put all the pieces together like that. Maybe Leyton are meant to be because they can manage to look beyond their flawed psyche. All we can be certain of at this point is that based on what Mark has written I was not meant to be a LPer!lol
As for Luke, damn I hope S5 HAD to happen in order for him to FINALLY learn and grow! Otherwise he's not gonna be anybody's mess anymore but himself!haha