I don't think so, and that's not me saying that as a Spuffy. Because Angelus doesn't see love the way Spike does, he sees love as something weak. Yeah, he was physically attracted to her, but if he in anyway acknowledged that he was in love with a human, Drusilla's fate probably would have looked merciful.

And Angelus with a chip in his head would never have gone to the scoobies. He probably would have been clever and used minions to get him his blood, and did some passive violence by setting houses on fire and watching the people burn.

i am so much happier to be on this debate! im not joking i have just been stuck into a horrible debate on greys anatomy over gizzie vs alex izzie and its so much more vicous and they claim to be older than me! i feel like pointing out that we can have a civil debate over couples we support! im trying to calm back down from pure anger and not take it out on here!
breathing
ok your probably right about angelus i just really wanted to start shipping for bangelus! ha! maybe i might try and find some bangelus videos on youtube anyway! lol!

I think that Angelus was in love with Buffy,"To kill this girl, you have to love her", but like Nika said, love is something different to him. Both he and Spike resent love, but Spike is much more accepting of it.
I do think that a chipped Angelus would have been interesting to watch. He would have been an even bigger baby than Spike, but it would have been hilarious. Probably similar to when the Immortal has them both chained up to the ceiling, helpless, while he has his way with Darla and Dru.

I do to. I think Angelus loved Buffy, and that's why he hated her. He couldn't stand positive human emotions and would have done everything he could to get rid of them, which meant killing Buffy at all costs. He never would have accepted loving her. He could stand loving Darla because she was a vampire and his sire, but Buffy was human and a slayer and that would have disgusted him more than anything.

Spike on the other hand has always been the true 'Fool For Love.' He died because Cecily scorned him, he stayed with Drusilla for a hundred years and forgave all her infedelities and took care of her, and he went and got his soul back for Buffy and died for her. He calls himself 'love's bitch' and he is completely right. He turns his mother into a vampire to save her from dying, another act of love. And takes care of Dawn for Buffy because he promised her he would. I think in a way, Spike can't function without some sort of love.

i feel sorry for spike being loves bitch! ive just been watchin season 2 over again i keep wanting to give spike a cuddle as hes loosing dru to angelus!
ok my points are really becoming stupid arnt they! lets just ignore me for a while! lol!

wow major spuffy breakthrough there
i completely agree, that's why i love spuffy so much because spike needs that love he depends on and I'm going to say something majorly sexist here but i don't care! that need for love is normally something you associate with girls, making spike quite unique

dont get too excitied its only really in season 2 i fel anything like that! lol! but i see what you mean about his need for love being associated with girls! and i completly agree wiht nika:
I think Angelus loved Buffy, and that's why he hated her. He couldn't stand positive human emotions and would have done everything he could to get rid of them, which meant killing Buffy at all costs. He never would have accepted loving her. He could stand loving Darla because she was a vampire and his sire, but Buffy was human and a slayer and that would have disgusted him more than anything.

Yay, MissMcKena. I so want to hug him to. The poor boy, he always get's screwed over when it comes to love. Takes care of her devotedly for a hundred years and she sleeps with someone else. He gets the short end of the stick, with Buffy and Drusilla. It's really no wonder he hates Angel so much, lol. And though I'm a complete Spuffy, I would just settle for Buffy giving him some respect, though I would hope that she would love him.

And yes, Spike is actually quite feminine when it comes to love. I actually heard about this essay once called Spike: Queering the Bitch, trangression and erotic empowerment, about the role reversal when it comes to love for Spike, and how he is the more feminine aspect of love in his relationship with Buffy, as her 'willing slave' in a submissive role, with Buffy as the more masculine dominant. I want to read it, but I can't find a copy of it online.

i would have to say BANGEL

youll have to go searching for it, sounds liek itll b good read!
and i have to admitt i never always liked spike as a charcter mainly because i was stuck in a similar debate (bangel vs spuffy) with one of my mates who introduced me to the show, and she was obsessed with james so i thort no i dont like him, but as ive grown a bit older ive started to really enjoy watching his character (mainly his scenes wth dru and angel)! but im still a strong bangel fan, ill never not love forbidden love, cutse wutse stuff, even though its probabaly argued that spuffy is the more mature relesionship! im really into goin out and finding some bangelus stuff now! anyone know of any?

hmm new theory maybe i'm just in to dominance lol

serously how messed up are all of us? i know i've always said this since i wrote that article sick, but really i think giles and jenny are the only normal realatinoship i love and even then she had litrally cope with giles's past

No, it's probably true. I only seem to really like the relationships in shows that are messed up. And yeah, Giles and Jenny are the only normal one.

And the dominance, I believe I'm into that. It's why I liked Roseanne, lol, seeing her dominant everyone and watching Darlene walk all over David.

But I don't think we're messed up, just a little bit different, lol. And it is a show about vampires, how normal can the relationships be really? And for vampires, S&M is probably normal, lol.

were allowed to messed up if we want! lol! and i think most people on this debate can agree to love giles and jenny and then hey weve made some kind of agreement or progress!

I think that a lot of Spuffy fans tend to go for Bad Boys, so I was wondering if that applies to me. After thinking about it for a while, it's inconclusive. Sometimes I like them, sometimes I don't.

I like bad boys on TV. In real life, not so much.

i like bad boys on tv and in real life unfortunatly! the nice guys always bore me, actualy no cuz its not even nice guys its guys who always let you win an argument stuff like that! but angel wasnt really like that i mean he was mysterious witty and yet showed his jealousy over buffy without telling her he liked her! they didnt start actually going out till season 3 like mid beginning!

I like the bad boys with the sensitive side. Like Spike, who's a bad boy but is a poet at heart when it comes to love.

erm i wouldn't say it the badassness i think it's the whole male protecting female, the man being tough, you know? (can you think of why i am constantly fighting with my feminist friend lol)

i don't think i've gone out with any guy that is constantly expressing his emocions or that would lose to me in a fight lol

plus i love guys with a sarky sense of humor, no reason i just do

I really like cocky guys. Sound weird when I actually say/type it.

no i know what you mean i like them as well!

Lol, I think I only like the cocky guys on tv. Or not, I remember the first guy I ever really liked was really cocky and I wanted to punch him all the time cause he use to annoy me so much, but kiss him as well, lol. For about eight years he was the only guy I even thought about, lol. Well, real person anyway. My friends were always telling me they thought I was in love with him.

I guess they just have to be sarcastic, witty, and willing to do everything for love. Which is why I like Spike. And Cole in Charmed.

Oooh, real cocky guys are even better than the ones on TV. I've gotten myself into trouble.

I shipped Bangel for the first season then I got bored of it.

Spuffy is sooo much better!

Right then *cracks knuckles*.

Where the hell did this go when I was gone? Bangelus?? I like your thinking missmckena but I can't go with that, would go against absolutely everything I've ever said!!

I agree that Bangel is the 'fantasy' relationship, it's Ross and Rachel or probably a better comparison is those old star-crossed lovers Romeo and Juliet. That's the reason I love it so much! TV is my escape, it gets me outta real-life and all its hassles. Buffy and Angel are meant to be together but destined not to be, I love all that. I'd have been furious if they'd ended Friends the same way though...As for being a Disney fan...yeah but not the soppy ones. : ) Lion King, Aladdin, Jungle Book...not Snow White or Cinderella.

Now I see what you're all saying about the Buffy/Spike relationship, I see how all you ladies could relate to that, a physical attraction to someone you really should despise. I get that, I honestly do. My point is never really to compare the relationships, it's the fact that I think it's the point where the show lost itself and tried something outrageous in a desperate attempt to recapture former glories. Vampire in love with a slayer...again. I don't disagree that Spike always shows that he loves her...I just don't think he does in S6, just like I don't think he loves Dru, I see it more as obsession.

I don't understand why people think Spuffy is so great in S6, all it does throughout the whole season is hurt Buffy and leave her despising herself. I can think of only one moment that doesn't really revolve around sex...and that's when they are talking under the rug...after they've just had sex.

In S6, it's Buffy's fling. It's the sex that keeps her going back, she's getting the rough-stuff instead of all that boring crap she got from Riley...she's just discovering what she's into (remember she's only 20/21) and Spike shows her that...but he ain't the long-term guy.

When he comes back in S7 though it's because she sees the lengths he's gone to that she believes in him, plus Buffy's thing has always been that they don't give up on people seeking redemption (and over on Angel too). Whether I believe Spike would have got his soul or not is a different question entirely but when Buffy sees what he's done she knows she owes him the chance of redemption. That's how feelings develop, Spike is fighting to become something better and she's bound to fall for that (I think she already has done once).

Finally, I agree that Angelus would never have joined the Scoobies in S4...but neither does Spike, he tries to lead them all to death at the hands of Adam doesn't he? It's only S5 when the writers ran out of ideas for keeping Marsters on the show that they thought up the proposterous notion that Spike loves Buffy...now I won't deny that he's always been attracted to her (who wouldn't be) but love outta the blue was not what I saw coming.

Sorry...forgot to add. Xander and Buffy? Definite no-no. She would never, ever look at him that way. If it was ever going to happen it would've done in S4, when she went for the 'normal' guy after Angel.

Okay, I don't know how you can think that Spike doesn't love her. I'm getting so frustrated, that I want to just order you to watch season five again.

He lets Glory beat him nearly to death to protect her secret. He sobs over her dead body. He prepares to die for her in the fight against Glory. He dreams about saving her every night. That's love! He offers to kill Drusilla for her, the woman that saved him from his mediocore human exsistance! That's freaking love! The look he gives her when she walks down the stairs when he sees her alive again, that's a look of pure love, not obsession or lust, that's a look of love! Taking care of her sister after she was dead, never knowing that she would ever know about that, nobody with just an obsession would ever do something like that, he loved her so he kept his promise to her to protect her sister. Counting the days she was gone, that's love. People who loose their love ones after fifty years of marriage count the days they're gone. He let's her beat him nearly to death in an alley and leave him there for the sun to rise, and he still stays because he loves her! No guy would put up with that kind of treatement unless they were in love with someone, no matter how good the sex was. He goes to the magic box to dull his feelings of love with a spell, to dull his loving feelings with magic, something he's made very well known that he hates! He get's his soul back for her so that he could be the man she deserves! No vamp would get their soul back for someone, something they know will make them less then they are and consume them with guilt, unless it was true love! He dies for her. They didn't know what that amulet was going to do, Angel didn't tell them. He went in that cave prepared to die for Buffy, not because he wanted to save the world, but because he wanted to save Buffy.

And it was forshadowed from season two that Spike had feelings for Buffy, just look at the scene in the bronze when he's watching her dance. At first it was lust, but as time went on his feelings devopled and got stronger.

In Something Blue it was even forshadowed there. Willow's spell only said they need to get married, not that they needed to love eachother. People married for many other reasons then love, exspecially in Spike's human days. Convience, money, business deals. But it ended up with them in love, which just brought out Spike's hidden feelings that were already there.

And of course he went to Adam in season four. He wanted the chip out. Would you like it if some government drones put a chip in your head that prevented you from eating hamburger's, your natural food source? Or even from defending yourself? I don't think so.

And no one, no one, would stay with someone for a hundred years, watching as she ran around on him with other men, but taking her back all the same, unless that was love! If it was just an obsession he would have left her when she got sick, but he didn't because he loved her! He did everything he could to make her better.

And yet again, the evidence that vampires can't love is contradicted by everything in the show. Darla loved Angelus, he loved her. She wouldn't have said the line, 'loving someone who use to love you' unless he had said it to her at some point in their nearly two centuries together. Drusilla loves Angelus, and in a way she does love Spike as her protecter. Harmony is the same self absorbed, shallow person she always was, and she had feelings for Spike. Spike loves Drusilla. The vampires in season three of Angel, James and Elizabeth loved each other! They only use the soul/no soul excuse with Angel because the writer's had backed themselves into a corner! The Judge in season two remarks on Spike and Drusilla's feelings for each other, "You two, you share jealousy...and affection."

In the episode that Willow comes in season three as a vampire, she is just Willow's darker nature with no inhibitations. Angel even was about to say before Buffy cuts him out that it's not true that the person is gone. He starts to say, "Actually that's not..."

The second Spike is turned into a vampire, his single minded focus is still very much with his dying mother, who he still loves. He wants to save her, so he makes her like him in hopes that she'll be better. That's still love!

A soul doesn't give you emotions, emotions are always there! Hate, jealousy, possessiveness, pride, amusement, they are all emotions vamps show. So is love. A vampire's love is darker, but it's still just as strong and their all the same. A soul is just a conscience, something that gives you guilt for when you do something wrong in the eyes of human society.

And Angel didn't immediately start doing good. He crawled back to Darla! Then hung out in sewers for eighty years eating rats! The only thing that made him to do good was seeing a little, innocent fifteen year old girl in a short skirt sucking on a lollipop. That's not love at first sight, that's lust a first sight for a blonde girl, that looked like a innocent version of Darla!

And everyone, everyone thinks that their first love is going to be forever. Everyone. But it isn't. I've never met anyone who is still with their first love, and they love the person after just as much.

I can't see how a person can say at seventeen, when you are less mature and not done growing that you've found your true love! At twenty you are not the same person. You haven't finished growing, devopling. First loves grow apart as people change as they mature! The person you are at seventeen is not the same as the person you are a twenty one.

In season seven, when Buffy says, "I loved him more than anyone." She uses the past tense of the word. Loved. Meaning that she use to. If she was still in love with Angel, she would have used the words, "I love him more than anyone." She doesn't. And I have a hard time believing that Buffy will ever love anyone as much as she loves Dawn or her mother.

All of season seven, her sole focus was on Spike. Cassie the seer tells him, "She'll tell you. Someday she'll tell you." The only thing that could possibly mean is the words, "I love you."

In the Girl In Question Andrew tells Spike and Angel, "She loves you both." Which meant she must have mentioned something about loving Spike to the scoobies at some point!

Both Angel and Buffy have moved on. Angel was in love with Cordelia by the time season seven rolled around.

And Buffy doesn't tell someone she loves them unless she actually means it. She never did with Riley. She's not the girl that tosses love around lightly.

i dont think joker was sayin spike wasnt in love with ehr cz i think weall come to recognise that, i think what he was saying is that he didnt understand where it came from it was so out of the blue, i mean you really have looked into all soike and buffy previous moments and i guess as a spuffier thats how youve seen it, but i neevr thought once of spikes attracted to buffy i thought he wants her blood you know like his speech to willow in the inititve like that.
i agree wiht joker that it is the tpical star crossed lovers except there not both dying! lol! and i guess the spike buffy storyline was a clever move from the writers in terms of rating, becasue im guessing at the time spike and buffy were two of the most popular characters, but i dont think i can ever like them as a couple, its one of the reasons why i hate watching seaon 6 along wiht just being a bad seaosn generally! i think that is what im trying to say!

Nika - Ok, lets start from the top. I watched S5 very recently and I found Spike falling in love with Buffy just as unconvincing the 6th time around as I did the first. This is the point you seem to miss, it is not a question of whether or not Spike loves Buffy...it's the fact that I don't find it believable. In S2 when Spike is watching Buffy in The Bronze, he's a hunter stalking his prey. Now I appreciate the sexual undertones because Buffy is not only a slayer but a hot one too, but there is no feeling there other than Spike's want to kill her. This whole thing really circles around my whole point that vampires aren't capable of love...jealousy, lust & desire sure, but not love. Spike and Dru aren't in love, I'll stand by that until I die, yeah they share affection but they're not in love because there is no human left in them for that. You say Spike wouldn't have stuck with Dru if he didnt love her because of her infidelities and stuff...this just backs up my point, it's not infidelity because they don't have relationships like that, they're not monogamous. I'm sure Spike had sex with plenty of other girls during his time with Dru, victims, other vamps, who knows? But I'm sure it happened...just like it does with Angelus and Darla.

Angelus is not in love with Darla, Angel says that himself (I swear I'm repeating myself here) in Angel, S2, ep7 - Darla. The vamps all say they can love, Spike does, Dru does and Darla does...but they have no point of reference because they don't really know how to feel it. Quoting Darla etc is just a moot point to me. Using soul-no soul is not an excuse, it's the reason. Angel's soul is what connects him to humanity, it's what keeps him from being what the demon inside wants him to be.

With Spike, the only way I could bring myself to accept any of his actions in S5 was because of his chip. I could understand how that may act as a kind of synthetic soul because he is forced to see Buffy et al as anything but food...but I had to convince myself to believe that so I could watch the show. I understood Spike's actions in S4, because he's evil...that's why he goes to get the chip out of his head, so he can kill again...and most probably Buffy. I'm sorry but to put it nicely, your comparison of me being deprived of hamburgers as Spike is feeding on humans is just a tad silly...I'm not a mass-murdering vampire (last time I checked anyways). You're trying to defend something that you really shouldn't there, and you've no need to. Look at it a little more objectively rather than with your 'SpikeRules' specs on.

In S5 the jump to Spike being in love with Buffy is so sudden, it comes from absolutely nowhere. Then in S6 Spike is so watered down, (he was practically soulful anyways) that the writers decided to go ahead and give him one. I found the moment with Spike and his mother totally unbelievable too, just didn't see why it would happen...then on the commentary I get told it's because Spike's an 'anomaly'. Now that was something that was conjured up to cover over a whole load of lore that had been laid down in previous seasons...such as:

BTVS, S1, EP7 - Angel

Willow: Angel's a vampire?
Buffy: I can't believe this is happening. One minute we were kissing, and the next minute... Can a vampire ever be a good person? Couldn't it happen?
Giles: A vampire isn't a person at all. It may have the movements, the, the memories, even the personality of the person that it took over, but i-it's still a demon at the core, there is no halfway.
Willow: So that'd be a no, huh?

I know that you all choose to believe that Spike is in love with Buffy from S5 or whatever and look for the Anne Rice in it all (I would point you to Lie To Me) but personally I don't see it that way and never will...that's why I always see it as a desperate move to regain viewers lost in S4 by putting two of the most popular characters together (and I bet it was after they received loads of fan comment on Something Blue too.)

Angel doesn't immediately start doing good no, that's why I like the character and his show so much though, he's much more complex. Angel is a demon at the core...but his soul is what connects him to humanity, nothing more. Of course he struggles with it at first, the demon is stronger than he is but he chooses to remove himself from temptation and confine himself to the sewers so as not to be weak again.

As for all your points about Buffy loving Spike...I thought I said that I realise feelings develop in S7 and that I understand why? Must pull you up on one thing though, that Buffy quote from 'Selfless' is a misquote she actually says this:

Buffy: I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with— I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to.

"...will ever love anything in this life..." That ain't past tense. Sure, she's not saying she's still in love with him...but she's saying that she will never love like that again.

Buffy does tell Angel she loves Riley as well, in Sanctuary (AS1, EP19).

Well, up until 5x18 I was a bangel all the way, but then that kiss happened and i started to doubt myself. Now that I've finished watching season 7, I came to the following conclusions:
a) I love Spike way more than I love Angel
b) Spike loved Buffy truly and unconditionally and 10-times more than Angel
c) Buffy's true soulmate is ...

Angel...
It's about who buffy truly loved...

Spuffy. That's all I got to say, well except that movygirl is COMPLETELY right. There I'm through.

Movygirl.. I definitely agree with your A and B. But as someone who is currently (and has been for years) very much in love, I must admit that I think that the concept of "soul mates" and "true love" is very much a load of crap.

nosemuffin- I understand what you're saying, because I don't believe in soulmates or the concept of true love either. But when it comes to BtVS I do belive in it, if that makes any sense. Like I don't believe in vampires or slayers in real life, but in the Buffyverse it's very real. So in the show, I think there are soulmates.

I don't remember where I read this as it was a long time ago, but at a Buffy convention a fan asked her about Bangel and Spuffy, and Jane Espenson said that Buffy/Angel were "soulmates" and that Buffy/Spike were "lifemates". I'm not sure what exactly she meant by that, but it's up to your interpretation I guess.

And also-
"It was because they were star-crossed," Greenwalt said of Angel and Buffy, "They were soul mates."

I see what you're saying Tisha, and that's a reasonable way to look at things. But I just can't do that. My Spuffy love is too great to think that way. I have to believe that unconventional love is the way to go, lol.

You would always go with Spuffy...Spike was the real anti hero kind....who was bad, but he choses to be good on the end....while Angel had all thrown in it on him....Angel never wanted to be good...
And Spuffy couple had more sense to me....with their friendship her trusting him, her rely on, her taking a strength in him....Bangel was all about few kisses and a lot of tears....and not logical or even real relations.... never made sense to me....Spike he was by her side from season 2....and he always came back , he pushed her buttons and it made her stronger...she pushed his and it put him o the right path on the end.....so yeah I would go with Spuffy always....Angel was eeewwww, minor sex and all that ....but also they did not seam real to me enough.....